A Publishing Professional Discovers Teenagers

A pair of polyester trousers, a slightly posher tie, and the social politics of the stockroom should not lead to a conversation about literacy, but somehow it does. We start by reliving our early retail jobs in Cardiff, from Boots uniforms and "Men's Technical" departments to the legendary stockroom guru who somehow holds the entire operation together. Along the way, we revisit late-night shopping, Sunday opening, and the strange workplace traditions that everyone follows without ever questioning.

We also catch up on real life: a trip to a toy superstore, a pretend mobile phone that refuses to charge, and a customer service desk that turns a simple return into something resembling a legal hearing.

Then we arrive at the main event: an article by a publishing professional who leaves the corporate world to teach GCSE English resits and discovers that many teenagers don't enjoy reading. Armed with this revelation, he offers a list of suggestions for getting boys to read.

Some of the ideas are sensible. Some are obvious. Some feel suspiciously like advice that sounds profound until you remember teachers have been doing it for decades.

We pick apart his arguments on reading for pleasure, set texts, literacy, GCSE English, and whether there's really a magic formula for creating readers. Along the way we discuss airport fiction, choice, role models, and the slightly baffling insistence that every reading list should include a short story by Tom Hanks.

If you've ever rolled your eyes at education advice that rediscovers things teachers already know, this episode will feel very familiar. Subscribe, share it with a colleague, and leave us a review with the book that made you a reader.

Found a worse museum postcard? Survived a ridiculous school policy? Or just want to tell us your favourite biscuit? Drop us an email at bandjcdb@gmail.com or leave a comment on our website!

Read the blog and see the postcards:  https://benandjamescoulddobetter.com/

Transcript

Uniforms, Status And Old Retail Jobs

SPEAKER_02 0:18

My goodness me, did I think I'd arrived when I slipped on a Marks and Spencer's autograph. You know, in the days when Take That were um were we leading the branding on it. Were they? I don't know what this did for me, but it there was a genuine rush of dopamine. I don't know, I've got nothing against a manager in Primark or whatever it is, but they will be decked head to toe in the old polyester. Not comfortabless. No, no, I well I remember I think I've mentioned it at some point on this uh podcast, but one of my many part-time jobs as a student, uh uh aside from the funeral service organist, it needs a whole episode all on its own, was the assistant supervisor at Boots, uh brackets weekends only, close bracket. They used to enjoy a a navy blue polyester trouser, which um I don't mind telling you used to chafe around the lower region a little bit. They provide the polyester trousers. Yeah, well the polyester trouser in blue uh and an A-line blue polyester skirt. I mean, not that it was in any way the sexist. But I went from the standard blue tie. You don't realise how big a deal this was, but I went from the standard solid block blue tie and the boots badge that just said Ben to the assistant supervisor, which would have a white vertical sort of line across it all the way down the tie. And that was that was the assistant supervisor, and the the ladies had to had to don a cravat. Very classy, which had the uh yeah, yeah. So that was that was the work experience, and oh you were destined for big things that assistant supervisor of boots. Well, if you became the full supervisor, they would then measure you up for the jacket, right? Which would be in matching blue polyester. Uh, but I do recall towards the end of my time there, they had a real revamp of the uniform and and drafted in Jeff Banks. Right to really sort of zhuch up the uniform. They used to have a line in Debonhams, didn't he? Back when there was a Debonham's. Yes, that's right. He did have a few lines, I think, but uh that's obviously between him and his conscience. But uh I do I do I do think, yeah, he But we both know Queen Street. Cardiff Queen Street, yeah. And I I used to work at uh store 323, Cardiff Queen Street. Which was the boot. The mate, the big the big one that sort of goes from Queen Street all the way through the sort of St. David's shopping centre and out the other side. So when I first worked there, I used to work in a department which I think had a great name. It's called Men's Technical. Men's Technical. I I I No women allowed. Oh no, it's a bit technical there, darling. You go upstairs if you want to. But we sold cameras, binoculars, that sort of stuff, and home brewing kits. And this was men's technical. This was known as men's technical. Don't let the ladies anywhere near a camera or whatever. Whatever you do. That could be it was honestly what it was called. Men's tech. I mean, could you could you pinpoint a year for us? Yeah, we were talking about ninety two onwards.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Right. Oh, that is before my time on the Queen's. Not on the planet, but not on the planet, no, I was I'd have been I'd have still been in school. But I'll have you know we won Store of the Year a couple of times. Oh, I'm sure you did. But I was uh I and I couldn't give you the number, but I I worked a few years later down the road on on Cardiff Queen Street in the in the in WH Smith's uh another another old brand before it became TG Jones, obviously. No, back back when it was WH Smith's. I worked there full-time for a bit between university courses and very whatever. I was there for a few months. I'd worked there, I worked in the Bridgend branch of WH Smith's as a weekend job back when I was in school. So it was just a natural step up once I uh I think I'd dropped out of university one of them numerous times. I I might say I just did that once, but there were there were a few times that that happened before I finally uh secured that undergrad degree. But uh I was um yeah, I worked in in WH Smith's the stock room.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

That doesn't sound very glamorous, but no. I mean other than you were working for a you know a well-known brand, the same as good old Jesse boots.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah, no, and I well and the polyester trousers were were very much a thing. Did they chafe with you as well? I don't think they were that comfortable, but because I worked in the stock room terrible for a sweaty summer day, though. I just didn't wear them. I wore just my own trousers because I wasn't I wasn't actually allowed on the shop floor uh being a stock room boy. It was a bit of a them and used of upstairs-downstairs vibe in WH Smith.

SPEAKER_02 4:42

Oh yes, that was true of boots as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

If you were in the stock room, you were kind of viewed as a sort of lower class. This this does take me back now to this was quite a weird era in my life. I did work in the stock room in WH Smith's in Cardiff and they were quite surprised when they realised I knew how to use a till because I'd I'd previously, as I say, worked in the Gen Bones. Yeah, the e-pos. The e-pos. What you can cover on the tills. Well, I can if you'd like me to. We haven't been till chained left. I had this I had that skill, so people, well, but that's what a stock room boy can work on the tills. But I took

The Stockroom And The Legend

SPEAKER_01 5:10

over in the stock room, or that are I I got my role. Yes, that's right. I had dropped out of so I'd been in university up to Christmas, dropped out, got a job in WH Smith's stock room just to sort of pay some bills, etc. There was a guy who was retiring, and I don't know if I was taking over from him, but he was called Bob. And so Bob was leaving, retiring, and everyone says, it's all gonna go wrong now. Bob's going.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

You know, only Bob knows how to manage in the stock room. Every branch has got a Bob. And then I turned up on the first day, and the guy that had sort of been Bob's assistant also left out of solidarity with Bob. Oh it's all gonna go. So like what we no, so we've not only lost Bob, we've lost Bob's apprentice. And I started, and there was this, oh how are they gonna cope?

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Bob's protege.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Bob's protege had gone, Bob had gone. How are they gonna cope in this stock room without the expertise? Now I don't want to do the professional stock room worker down because you know I I don't want to sort of now have risen up to the role of teacher. You weren't better than that. We weren't better than, but no, it wasn't a difficult job. It was quite an easy job. So it turns out it was all fine. Once Bob had gone, it turns out that it was just fine. It wasn't but there was a guy, and I'm gonna name him because I don't think I can't remember his name. I don't know, he was a fairly young guy called Howell. Howell still could be a Howell still Howell's part-time and and sort of only worked a few days a week. Well, part-time. He's probably got repetitive straining. The definite because he was doing he was doing a part-time degree as well. But he Howell. So he wasn't there very often, so most of the time it was me, um, a guy called Chris who was taken on after me to replace the protege that had left. There was a manager who sort of kind of checked in with us from time to time. And we managed pretty it was fine. But every now and again, Howell would turn up for work and he'd go, sharp, it's all gone wrong. He sounded like he sounded like you were gently letting the air out of a lily. He would, he would just look, he would just shake his head in disappointment. It's all it's not Bob would not have settled for this. Bob would not have tolerated it. So they felt the standards were slipping.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

He felt the standards were slipping as we opened up. This is much more interesting than I thought. You can see the animation in my face. The other thing, there's so many things I want to say about this part-time job, right?

Late Night Shopping And Overtime Pay

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah, Thursday evenings is when I started. You had a two-hour shift on Thursday evening, which was termed as late night shopping. And it was it was the six till eight slot. And my goodness me, were the people who'd worked longer than that six to eight huffing and puffing by the time it got to half past seven. There was like a yeah, but there was like a half an hour close down routine trying to sort of move uh the customers out. But that was time and a half. You got time and a half for Thursday night because it was six till eight, it was described as unsociable hours. That's true, because it it was back in the 90s. Thursday was late night shopping. Late night shopping, and the Saturday was time and a half. It was seen as oh I don't know. In a shop, I know, I remember that. And then I was there for for the first Sunday opening. Now, this was a big thing for store three two three because Graham, the store manager, he couldn't be expected to work seven days a week. Big store like that, 323, three levels. So, you know, you did a couple of seven-day weeks as we were opening, you know, because obviously nobody could cope without Graham. But then they started putting the managers, the other managers, so like the HR manager, Pat. I'll never forget Pat. How you been? How's it going? If you said you had to say something positive, because if you didn't, she wouldn't listen anyway. Right. There was no ability to step in and help you out. So there was no point in saying anything other than it was and then um yes, but the Sunday opening, double time for Sunday, double time, because it was that and I think they paid even more on a bank holiday. It might even have been two and a half times for bank holiday.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Just for being open on days when people could actually go shopping, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

And if I was working in a university or school holiday, well, I was gonna be there on the Monday anyway.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

It's absolutely fine, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

And you got a free breakfast as well. But the Sunday was eventually entrusted to one of the supervisors who was able to step up. What Lynn's gonna do on Sunday is Lynn's not gonna wear the stripy tie. I you might not recognise her, but Lynn's gonna be wearing a suit on a Sunday because she's now been appointed Sunday manager. So Lynn became the Sunday manager. And this caused great uh consternation because there were two Lynns, and one of them used to manage the stock room, which is linking to your story to show I was listening, right? Yes. One of them used to So then you couldn't just say Lynn or Linda because that you know there was confusion. Which Linda do you mean?

SPEAKER_01 10:00

Anarchy.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Do you mean Linda, the now newly promoted Sunday manager who was on, I think, despite all their good pay, was on something like a pound more or less in Sunday. Uh even back in those days. But then you had to say whether it's Linda or whether it was Linda Gogg. Right. Linda Goggle. Linda Gogg, it wasn't her name, she was Goggerty. Right. But it was short, and I don't know whether it was a Welsh thing or not. Oh Linda Gogg, is there? Right. Or do you mean Linda? It was like that kind of thing. So Linda was just Linda and then Linda. Linda had to be Linda because Linda was the manager. The Sunday manager. Sunday manager, yeah. Yeah, no, that's important. But if Graham came in, Linda would take very much her back seat. You know, who wants to talk about education though? We could we could just do discussions about old jobs. I've had about 40 of them. You know, we could reminisce on everything from the feel of the uniform against our skin to Well, I mean it in some ways it might lead us to why we got into teaching eventually. Yeah. I tell you what though, if they would pay current salary now to even if I had to take on the management of Sunday, although it would be totally different because they're managed they're owned by private equity. It'll all be different. Everything will be different. Those companies, when we worked for them, were owned by the actual company. Yeah. Jesse Boot of Nottingham.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

Yeah, that's all changed. That's all changed. All changed. Did you I mean, for example, W. H Smith's now being T G Jones? W. H. Smith was an actual person. Private equity again, isn't it? TG Jones, not a person. No. A made up. To sound a bit like W. H. Smith. And Jesse Boot was Jesse Boot. Jesse Boot. John Sainsbury was John Sainsbury. Exactly. My great-grandfather sold pigs to John Sainsbury. So shall we get

Welcome To Ben And James

SPEAKER_01 11:39

with the show then? Welcome to Ben and James, could do better. And I think we've just proved that we certainly could, and we'll keep working at it. Well, we say that every week and yet we haven't done better.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Well, I mean actually you had some feedback saying we have progressively got better, so that's quite good. I've had two bits of feedback saying we've progressively got better. But they weren't fans of the first. They weren't, because one of them said to me, I'm working my way through episode one several times. Yeah. And then the other day said, Oh, uh, when's the next one coming out? And I said, What? Episode two, it's been out for weeks. And she went, No, no, no, I've listened to them all. Because we've had a few people saying they're working their way through episode one.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

It's obviously been a really difficult listen. So um first album. I mean they're normally the good ones. It does demonstrate progress if people apparently when people get past episode one. So keep that in mind, firmly in mind. Although if you're listening to this, presumably you have, because this isn't episode one.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

And I know, and I almost want to apologize if you had to listen to episode one to get here, because it it seems like it's quite quite an endurance test. And there's no benefit to listening in order. No, makes no difference.

Register Banter And A Cat Postcard

SPEAKER_02 12:37

So then it's time that I took the register and the class are sort of obviously coming to an immediate attention for me, uh, as they always do, um, sitting in their designated chairs, looking for me to do a swifter job than I sometimes do with the register. So I'm present, obviously, because I'm taking the register. So uh James C. Sono qui. Is that Spanish? No. Portuguese? Italiano. Oh, Italiano, oh, prego, prego. Yeah, prego, prego.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

I love Italiano. Now, the problem we've got there is last week I also did French, this week I've done Italian. I've run out of A levels in languages at this point, so I'm gonna have to learn some new. Yeah, but you did say it with a Mexican accent. I don't really understand that. Didn't I say it with an Italian accent? I mean it's been a few years since I did the A level. I lived in Paris. So my French is okay. Not up to the standards of my children. Or your wife. That's not good. No, my wife, she's quite complimentary. It's my children that absolutely, as we know, to talk about it. Yeah, Matilda refuses to accept that I can speak it, but now Jemima asks me to read her story. She's got likes a story. Can you read me a story? And she always picks a French book, and I read it to her. But it's Matilda you need to work on. No, Matilda wouldn't let me read a French book, but Jemima now lets me read to her and then corrects me as I'm reading the story. So we'll correct my pronunciation. Lets me read it in French, but will tell me I've pronounced mispronounced a word. Time for the postcard. Time for the postcard. Just to pick I'm gonna pick one at random, not one we've had before there. I nearly did that then. In my experience, it doesn't matter whether it's random or one you've thought about, to be honest. Well, it's better if I haven't thought about it. It's much better. Look, this is a postcard which depicts two cats clearly in love. Two cats in love. And I'm gonna surprise you here and go, oh, that's lovely. Yeah, I mean there's two cats hugging with a heart above them, and it's dreadful, it shouldn't exist. And it does. And that's it. It is dreadful, it shouldn't exist. Right, anyway, um, we've done the postcard bit, we've done the register bit. I like the audit that we've done there. So, what have you been up to this week then, Ben?

Mini Metro Fixation And Toy Returns

SPEAKER_01 14:31

I'm not sure I want to admit it.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Oh, I mean I that that I think that's piqued everyone's curiosity. I've been becoming sort of gradually obsessed with 80s and 90s mini metros. Well, mini metro followed by the Rover Metro, which then became, if you're interested, around sort of 95, the Rover 100. But yeah, it was the Austin Metro, the Mini Metro, the Rover Metro, and then the Rover 100. And it was an evolution rather than a revolution. Uh so what did you get up to?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

I spent some time in Smith's Toys Superstore. I thought we were going back to WH Smith's then. Not not to be confused, WH Smith's uh, which doesn't exist anymore, isn't it? TG Jones, although WH Smith's does exist in airports and train stations, I believe. Uh now I I do like a toy shop, I'm not gonna lie to you, but uh I mainly went there to take my children uh toy shopping because Jemima, the younger child, um, had a birthday in April and and acquired some vouchers for that that establishment for Smith's Toy Superstore. She's got some vouchers to spend. And Matilda has actually saved up some pocket money because we give her pocket money. And uh normally Matilda will spend her pocket money uh the second she acquires it, or will try to. Where does she like to spend it on? Where anything rubbish, just absolute rubbish. Papa, papa, magazine with within. She speaks we've established she only speaks English to me, right? Uh so she will spend with a French fluent. No, with a French accent. No, she's Matilda like Jemima's got the French accent, you've got to keep up. Jemima, the younger child, the four-year-old, has a French accent and speaks mainly in French, but can speak English when she chooses. Matilda speaks both languages fluently and both. But won't speak to you. But won't speak to me in French.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Yeah. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:10

I know it's coming slowly for me, but good, you'll get there. She will try and spend her pocket money the the the instant she gets it. But I will normally refuse to let her spend her money on absolute rubbish. So she has, through just my unwillingness to let her buy things, saved a fair bit. So Jemima had some actual vouchers to spend. Matilda had a fair bit of pocket money, and it's all been building up.

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Sizable sum.

SPEAKER_01 16:30

A decent amount, yeah. And so she had been kind of chomping at the bit uh well, quite literally chomping at the bit. She'd lost two teeth as well. So the tooth fairy had given her some money as well, because that's the thing that happens if the tooth fairy remembers, which sometimes the tooth fairy forgets. It's not ideal. But the tooth fairy which one's on duty, I suppose. Yes, it does. But the tooth fairy it normally pays up in the end, but not not always, uh, it's not always a speedy transaction. Bit quicker after paying bank holidays aren't great, for example. So I took both my children to Smith's Toy Superstore. Now, Matilda was straight away. I'm having that, I'm having that. She wanted everything. It was a plastic festival, was it? Yeah. But has been hankering for what can only be described as a fake mobile phone. Oh gosh. This is not making well. Uh so well, it's quite good in a way because it's not a mobile, it doesn't do any of the things mobile phones do, but it looks like one and it does sort of educational stuff. So it's all right, actually. So she actually had enough money to buy one of these. I think it's conditioning. Well, she wanted one. I didn't want to get it for her for a birthday. She had enough money to buy one. I was not, I mean, I thought at the end of the day, this is something she's gonna get. It's got to be an element of choice about it. It's got to be an element of choice. So she I identified that, she identified she had enough money for it. I was surprised she had enough money for it, but she actually did. Jemima couldn't have been less interested in spending the vouchers. In the end, she bought some some toy unicorns. But we we got home. Uh Jemima actually has not, though not interested in in the acquisition of goods, unlike her sister, then did proceed to play with the toys. Matilda took the phone out of the box and did play with it, and then it ran out of battery, and we plugged it in to charge and it wouldn't charge. So I've had to make two trips to Smith's Toy Superstore this week. Uh, one to with the children to buy the stuff, and the second one to return the the phone that the toy phone that didn't work. And and that was That sounds like hell on earth. It's it's not great. And then I went in and they were like, Well, it's an electronics good, so you can't just we need to check that you're telling the truth. Oh gosh, there's a truth, Sitrus. So and it was the we we might not be able to do this today. And I was a bit well, well, it's you surely you can. And and they did, to be fair. The manager came out and he said, Well, I'll check that for you. And he did, and he said, No, you're absolutely right, that's not working. Uh, would you like a refund or would you like to exchange it? And I said, Well, I personally would like the refund, but my child would like to exchange it. So we got another one, and that works, and that's fine. And she's delighted. So there you go, that's been my week. It was more involved than I thought it would be, but I I do thank you for sharing it. Well, I'm I was happy to share it. And Matilda would be happy to share the joy of using a pretend mobile phone.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Do you think she might find me funny if she starts listening to this, or do you think she's going to I will be the second aging male whom she'll opt out communicating with?

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Again, my daughter does communicate with me, just not in French. Yes, I know, but you seem confused by the relationship with my children. I'm not confused by it, but my children do quite like me, both of them, and both of them treat to me. There's there's never been any suggestions. Well, I mean, there was literally just a suggestion then, so I'm gonna just uh just clarify that with you. So uh I have a list.

Publishing To Teaching Culture Shock

SPEAKER_01 19:19

Well, this list, it's not a very long list, so that's good that's the good news. Merciful, I think, the dog. And there's not a lot of explanation to the list either, so there's just the titles, and then there's not much it's fairly self-explanatory.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

This is gonna be sort of we're gonna we're just gonna rattle through these. We'll rattle through the list. There's not gonna be anything remotely amusing about it.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

But there's a story before the list. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Well, we all know who has to tell the story.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Well, I'll I'll try and keep it brief. The floor is yours. You say that, you'll interrupt me. And I uh I won't, actually. I think you will. I won't. I I think you're going to want to. I'm going to want to, but I'm not going to. You I think you'll have to. Alright, well, let's see how it goes. I think that you will not be able to not interrupt for this story. This story is about a gentleman. I'm not going to give you his name because he's a he's a local man. But he made the news. Well, I mean they say the news, he made an online news story that I I found. And so this is a man who used to work in publishing. Right, okay. He decided, and in a moment of inspiration, it says here, this is what he said. He had a road to Damascus thought, and in a moment of inspiration, I'm always already laughing. Bracket or madness decided to leave the corporate world to become a GCSE English teacher.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

I think we should just visit the GP first of all.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

He wanted to, as we've said before, he wanted to give something back. Having made you know been very successful in the world of publishing, he wanted to give something back. So he went into teaching and he taught GCSE English in a college. So not not a secondary school, as such. So it's a 14 to 19 job. Yeah, although I think 16 to 19. Post-16. This this is for GCSE resets, effectively. People who hadn't thrived doing GCSE English in school. Obviously, you know you you need to get that at GCSE if you possibly can. So the GCSE reset in English and maths is quite a popular business. And he I wouldn't say it's popular with the students, but it's something they need to do. It's popular in the sense that there's there's a lot of uptake. And he wanted to give something back and he wanted to support these young people. Um laudable. Laudable. What surprised him in a GCSE reset class was how few of the students enjoyed reading. And he was surprised by the lack of the the the fact they didn't have. The lack of a love of learning and a love of reading. So he was surprised by this. Because he worked in publishing and of course he loves reading. He grew up in a house full of books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And was surprised that the young people didn't love reading. Were he more than surprised? More than surprised. So somebody disgusted? Not disgusted, no, but disappointed because reading is something that's obviously something he's very passionate about. And it's a skill. Sad, he was sad. Sad, I think is the word. Yeah. Sad. We're not saying the guy's sad, obviously. We don't know. No, but I felt quite emotional. Emotional, sad. He'd he'd left the corporate world of publishing to give some. Back and got there. They didn't want what he was giving back. They didn't want it. No, he persevered. And he tried to, you know, and he's he's he's committed his committed himself to trying to inspire a love of reading in young people who don't love reading. And what he realized was that there are some issues with the English curriculum. And in fact, some of the books that we're asking children to read, turns out they don't want to read.

SPEAKER_02 22:21

I've got to be very careful what I'm saying, but yes, this is chiming with me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

The problem we've got here is, of course, he's not going to be able to change the curriculum. No. Lord knows people have tried before him and they haven't been successful. So he was never going to so in trying to aspire a love of reading, he was he he sort of introduced different texts to them, tried to take them outside. Sign is incredibly laudable. But the problem obviously with that with this sort of sadness in his heart. Yeah, it's a real worry. The online world has replaced books. Anyway, he's, you know, so he left publishing, became a teacher, has now left teaching and has become a writer.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

How long was he in teaching for? Because I you're asking me to take this man seriously, and I was taking him seriously. I felt the pain in his heart. I felt the the sadness that he felt. I felt him wanting to share his love of literacy with other people. I felt him leaving his company and his highly paid job and his personal assistant and his Mercedes Maybach. Well, let me read you a bit about some of his. I'll I'll give you his words.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Right, okay. Well let's let's have some of his words. This should be good. The move to teaching turned a long-held ambition into a reality by giving something back to society using the medium I love. Now, it's important to say money was not the significant factor in making this decision. Of course it wasn't. He was going into teaching. In fact, he took a 75% pay cut.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Goodness mate. Well, that's commitment, isn't it? He's a hero. I don't suppose he had anything in the bank.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

No, no.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

He'd run that dry, hadn't he?

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Hand to mouth now.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

I mean busky.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

And then as he was waiting to does man have to live on the salary of a teacher?

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Gosh, yeah. How did he do it? Well, I I just want to say thank you on behalf of all teachers.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

We do, yeah. Anyway. I do. No, I do, I do. It was about getting into a classroom to see if he could use his experience in book publishing to make a difference to teaching English to teenagers. Now, you know, whether he did or not. He didn't produce a list, did he? Well, he did, yes. Yes, he did. He wanted to bring reading into So at the start of each term he challenged people to learn a hundred new words, but he used to talk to them about the books he was reading. Right. He made personalised book suggestions for them.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

For the research students.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

For the research students. Yeah. You know, and introduced them to the worlds of Lee Child and the Jack's.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Oh, Lee Child, yeah, yeah. But I don't know Lee Child.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

No, no, no problems there. Except he's not on the curriculum, of course. That's the only problem.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

I think I think um it's gr it's great wanting to foster uh a love of reading in young people. But I think you'll find if you're trying to give back and working with the reset class, just getting them to focus on the actual set text would probably be Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

I mean he he's got some problems with the set texts, and he says you know, some of them are over a hundred years old, and yeah, it's not again.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

Why doesn't he take that up with the exam board? It's got I mean it's in or the government, yeah, either.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Well, you know, he's just sharing his story. Yeah, okay. Anyway, he's he's now not a teacher. It doesn't say how long he was in teaching. No, he doesn't strike me as long. I don't think so. No. But he's written his own book as well. Well, we're not here to plug people's books, but this could be an exception. I have no, I'm not saying his name. But he writes in short he's short, action-packed chapters, much like Dan Brown. Gosh. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

So now some people criticize Dan Brown, but there's no doubting his success, is there? Yeah, and he finishes.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

So this could be similar to that. I think so. We're we're hoping so. Well, I'll talk to you. Uh and I looked up his book on Amazon just before. It's doing so we've got some sales figures for later on, maybe. I haven't got sales figures. I can tell you that he's only had five-star reviews. Only had five-star reviews. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

Oh, well. Right. Yeah, well, I know a few people like that.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, well, he's had eight five-star reviews. Right, okay. So that is six less than us. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we're here to brag. No. To be honest with you, James. Well, just to be clear, that's six less than we've got on Spotify. We've got other five-star reviews on on other platforms as well. But he might have other five-star reviews on other platforms, so I'm just comparing his Amazon reviews with our Spotify reviews.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

And and to be clear, we're not on Amazon people. We are on Amazon Music, actually. You can't listen to us on that. We've got no reviews on there. Um it's not a popular not a popular route to market for us. Not so much, no, but it's not a book, so it is the route for Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 26:14

Maybe it's where we need to go when we've got the merchandise. And when we write a book, which we might do. Anyway, so he's not. So I'm not saying he's not a bestseller, but I think eight reviews on Amazon doesn't support. I think we are going to write a book, and we're going to commit to that here and now. Yeah, well, it sounds like there's a pathway to helping improve literacy in teenagers. Yeah. Uh short chapters like Dan Brown. He says, one of my pupils told me he'd done more than 1,000 hours on a computer game. Imagine if he just spent a hundred hours reading. What a difference that would make. Now that is inspirational. But what he's then done, with all his years of experience in teaching, teaching people to read. Yeah. Well, he doesn't teach them to read though, does he? He teaches them English GCSE, which isn't.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

He's not teaching somebody to read.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

You assume a base level of literacy at the outset. Whether you're correct to assume it is another matter, but you do assume when you teach that. I I I anyway, he has got some advice on how to get teenage boys reading, and this

Nine Tips For Boys To Read

SPEAKER_01 27:03

is the list. Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Just before you do. I want to get it out there that I, since the days of the Commodore 64, even in those days, which weren't exactly known for sort of wonderful graphics and fully immersive games. If you'd have said to me, and I'm not a gamer, bear this in mind, could you come away from the Commodore 64 connoisseur and read one of these books? It would have been met with um at best resistance. At worse, things that can't be said on this. But I didn't like computer games. That's how much I would have been keen to move on to fiction or poetry. Yeah. Give me a book with sort of facts in it or a historical story or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

You've preempted the advice.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

You preempted the advice. Well, no, if if I'm if I can deliver 20% of what this published author who's left industry, this magnate, if I can give 20% of that, I'll be very happy.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

Now, this advice isn't for teachers, but it's sort of educational advice. It's aimed at parents. Right. How do how do you as a parent? Clear target audience, parents. It's good advice. If you've got teenage boys and they're not reading enough. Not girls, though, don't worry about girls. This is just for boys, okay? Yes. No problem with girls.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

But there's no problem with girls reading, then, is what we're saying.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

All girls cross the board. Anyway, he says how to get teen boys reading, and this is aimed at parents. So advice, piece of advice number one, and I think you've already touched upon it, respect his interests and passions. Respect the boy who is not reading passions and interests. Although I would argue that his interests and passions are to not read, amongst other things.

SPEAKER_02 28:32

And if the passion was gaming, you're not gonna stop him gaming because that would be showing disrespect to his passion. He's explained it in a bit more detail.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Okay. So if the boy is obsessed by cricket, football, or gaming, find him novels, biographies on those subjects without judgment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

Look, I I'm I think we have to be fair. That's not a bad thing. No, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

That's that's okay. But I I was just saying that the passion is likely to be something that would stop them reading. Yeah, and I mean, and it seems painfully obvious, but that's fine, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:00

Get them to read these painfully obvious.

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Get them to read something that they're interested in. Okay, but I won't help them pass the GCSE though.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

And that's that's laudable in itself. I have bought a Haynes manual on the Metro. Which you're interested in, it's your passion, that's great. Well, I w I was trying to sort of teach myself something about how the internal combustion engine works. It's not gonna help me pass GCSE English. No, no, that's not going to do it. Informative a read as it is.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

No. No, no, because GCSE English is going to require other skills. But we are going to. I mean, essentially what what what point number one is saying is let let the boy choose what he wants to read. Point number two, let him choose.

SPEAKER_02 29:43

Point number two is let him choose. Yes. But point number one was let him choose. In different words, yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

So it says he's more likely to read what he wants. Yes, probably things about his interests and passions. I'd imagine. But uh, yes, okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Oh my goodness. Point number one.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

So read point number one, word for verbatim, please. Point number one, respect his interests and passions. If he's obsessed by cricket, football, or gaming, find him novels and biographies on those subjects. Without judgment, it doesn't matter if it's not well written. That's enough. So respect his passions. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:14

Is what the first three words say. Can you read the first three words of point two, please?

SPEAKER_01 30:20

Well, the title's Let Him Choose. He's more he's more likely to read what he wants, whether comics, sports magazines, or autobiographies, than what you select for him.

SPEAKER_02 30:30

Let him choose, let him choose. But we've just established that the fictitious boy or boys are not choosing to read. Right. So by saying, Well, you choose, they will choose. Just say Falf Dad. I don't want to.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Right, okay. Let's go. There's more than two points though. Right, okay. Well, the the first two are this man wants to give something back. Will you let him, please? Well, the first two are one. Num point number three, visit literary locations.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Right. So it's a bit more flesh on this bone. I mean, we know what they are. We don't mean going to the platform three and three quarters, do we?

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Or yeah, no, well, it's sort of, yeah. It says bring a book alive by visiting together the real life place where the book where the story is set. Right. So you're in Provence. Go to Provence, yeah. It also says though, make a point of browsing bookshops together. So it's sort of two, it's both for the locations within the books and places where they sell books. Right.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

So once you've got the boy or boys off the gaming console, the phone. Because they'll be 16, so they're not going to be locked away in a cupboard at home and all the rest of that. Yeah, yeah. Then what we're going to say to him is we need to go to this particular bridge or this bit of open scrubland or whatever it is, a mansion that looks like it could have featured in Wuthering Heights, and we will stand there together. Yeah. Just taking in the mise en if you like. So let him choose, let him choose, take him somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yes, actually, right.

SPEAKER_02 32:03

So it's basically take him on a day out. Yeah, yeah. But you'd have to go they they'd have to say something like, Well, can we go to the amusement arcade as well, Dad? Or um Is is there a theme park around here?

SPEAKER_01 32:17

It's very cynical that you're just like, This isn't gonna work. Well, are you gonna get me those trainers that you've been promising me? I think I think what you're Is there a Smith's toy shop nearby? The problem you've got here is that you're thinking of literary works and how a young person going to the site of a literary work isn't gonna be that inspired because they're not inspired by that kind of work. So, point four years airport fiction is just fine. Airport fiction. So, what are you saying there? A Dan Brown. A Dan Brown, yeah, it's exactly what you're saying. So don't force the classics on him.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Don't exactly.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Reading for pleasure is the priority. Exactly. The Jack Reacher series by Lee Child and Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code are great are they a great place to start.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

The Jack Reacher series.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Jack Reacher and and obviously the Dan Brown the Da Vinci Code. Slim volumes, both.

SPEAKER_02 33:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Dan Brown's not on the GCSE. Uh more's the pity.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

I know you could you could and on that one, you could really, I mean, we're coming towards the summertime, you know, if you've got any money left after the cost of living rises, you could say, look, guys, we are off to roam. We're gonna fly into Fumicino or Champino, whichever, you know, is the cheaper. We're gonna stay in uh, you know, very cheap, I'm sure, central accommodation. We are going to go down to the colonnade in the Vatican City, and we're going to look up to the top of the colonnade. We're gonna look around the top, and we can go, gosh, they can run along that wall. Just like they did in the Dan Brown. From the Vatican to a place of safety or exile or whatever it is. You could see where you I'm gonna have to stop you there because you'd like to just envisage. You could you could be there.

SPEAKER_01 33:46

Yeah. The problem with that is because we might have some teenage boys listening to this because we know we know we do have teenage boys who listen to this, and they might not be big readers, and they might have listened to that and thought that's exactly what I'm gonna do. And there is a Dan Brown novel set in Rome, but that's called Angels and Demons. That's not the Da Vinci Code, that's set in Paris.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_01 34:02

And a bit in London, but not in not in Rome. Rome is Angels and Demons. Angels and Demons, yeah. Now, obviously, if you are a child who it was more Dan Brown, though it's like Dan Brown, yeah, generally. Um, and if you are a child who doesn't like reading, or a young man who doesn't like reading, yeah, something like the Da Vinci Code is perfect because it's it's only it's a slim volume, it's only 590 pages. So a slim 590 page volume is exactly what you'd be looking for if you're a reluctant reader. Uh so uh point number five, model the habit. Okay, because that's a big problem, is they don't see a lot of people reading. Go about life with a book in your hand to normalise reading as a part of everyday life. Oh, hello. Uh yeah, I'm just off to the toilet. Actually, that's where my dad does a lot of his readings, that's point six. Back to respect. Respect his limits.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Sounds like a sexual health um sort of.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

If he's not enjoying a book by page 100, it's okay for him to give up.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Well, I suppose if he got to page 100 and he was a reluctant reader, you'd be quite happy anyway, wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 35:03

I think that's fine. I mean 100 pages of reading. I I think if he gets to page 10 and he's not enjoying it, let him give up. Yeah. But no, no. I mean 10 pages.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Hey, this guy came out of industry to go back into teaching. He'd expect he's expecting people to give something a good crack before they give up.

SPEAKER_01 35:18

If I'm honest, if I was working with reluctant readers. And they were reading anything for any period. Well, if we were going off curriculum, you know, which he seems to be encouraging, I might not give them a book that's more than 100 pages. So if they've got to page 100, finish the book. Point number seven, if in doubt, and I imagine a lot of parents will be in doubt, ask a librarian. Can they even find an open library? Let's assume they Well Most of them have been closed, yeah. So I I don't know if that is great advice, ask a librarian, because I don't I think if you can find a librarian, yeah, by all means ask a librarian if you can find one, but they're not they're not as ubiquitous as uh as the list suggests. They're not they're not waiting there. Uh there they there aren't as many libraries to employ librarians to therefore give that recommendation. Point eight. Well, if your son, or perhaps you, not a big reader, if your son reads just one short story this term, it should be Go see Costers by Tom Hanks. Go see Costas by Tom Hanks. By Tom Hanks. Yes, the actor Tom Hanks, I believe. I'm not saying this is all of this advice has been bad, although it has, but what I am saying is that's awful advice, isn't it? Just if they're only going to read one thing, it must be this book by Tom Story by Tom Hanks.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

What even is it about?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

I don't know. I I mean I'm now going to read Go See Costers by Tom Hanks, just so I know, and I'll see if I'll recommend it next time. If your son reads just one short story this term, let them choose. Let them choose. Don't insist on it being a story by Tom Hanks.

SPEAKER_02 36:46

Yeah. Because But it he just completely contradicted and undermined himself by saying if he's going to read, if the lazy blighter's going to read something, make it and by God he'll be reading something. Yeah. It's going to be go see costus by Tom Hanks. Point number nine of nine. This is really going to sort of pull it all together.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

And it's not going to undermine any of the previous points. It's at it supports even though point eight undermined everything.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

They often do these lists, yeah. It really sort of comes together in the in the in the last point, I think.

SPEAKER_01 37:18

If your son says reading is not for me, remind him. He just hasn't found the right book yet. Well, I think we've solved it.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

I think we've solved no literacy levels amongst boys. It was a very, very imaginative list, and I think a very emotionally intelligent list. I mean, respect them, listen to them, don't force them to do anything apart from reading Tom Hanks, of course. Which goes for the same thing, doesn't it? So there always is an exception though, James. You know that as well as I do. By God, you can take the horse to water and you will make it drink Tom Hanks. It's as it's as simple as that. I always thought you could take the horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. But in this case, you can take the boy to the book and you will force it. It the boy will be called at that point. It won't even be humanised. It will read Tom Hanks Go See Costus.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Or perhaps the book this this man's written as well. That'll be fine. Or anything by Dan Brown. Well, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:29

Well, that

Closing Jokes And Reading Challenge

SPEAKER_02 38:30

very sadly brings us to the end of another very interesting and amusing podcast. James, it's been great to spend time with you. And you. But it doesn't bring us to the end of our love of literacy, of course.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

Certainly not. So between now and next week, I would urge all of our listeners to read Go See Costas by Tom Hanks. And I will certainly read it, and I'm sure you'll read it too, Ben.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

On that note, we'll wish you well. And if you are transiting through an airport at this point, then don't forget to pick up something. But obviously, don't if your son won't read the airport fiction, insist that he reads something by Tom Hanks, particularly Go see Costas.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

No, I'm off to go see Costas, so I'm gonna say goodbye. Goodbye.